Tom Erb has had a career in the staffing industry spanning 20+ years. He’s worked on both sides of the desk, grown revenues near $100 million and is a top thought-leader in the staffing space; needless to say, he knows his stuff.

After a sterling career in staffing, Tom started Tallann Resources; a consulting firm helping staffing and recruiting companies of all sizes and verticals transform their sales structure, create and implement their strategic plans, and optimize their recruiting process.

In our conversation below, we dive into the 6 steps to building a great sales organization along with other tidbits Tom has amassed throughout his career.

And as a special treat to Herefish customers, Tom has created an 11 step sales process blueprint that you can use today. If you’re not yet using Herefish, then click here to learn how you can leverage the Tallann method of driving new business in your firm.

Interview Transcript

Travis: All right. We’ve got Tom Erb, Tallann Resources, on the phone. And I think the biggest question that most people have are what’s your favorite IPA that you’re into right now?

Tom: Well, I’m glad we started with the important stuff, Travis. First of all, thanks for having me. Yeah, well I am really into the New England/Hazy/Juicy type IPA, so it’s kind of my Achilles heel right now. So I’m a big fan of those. Yeah, there’s just a bunch of them. So I won’t get into specific brands, but I’m just a big fan of the whole genre and I hope it’s not a fad. I don’t think it is. So it’s good stuff though.

Travis: I don’t think so. There’s too many beer trucks driving around for this to be a little small fad, I think.

Tom: I agree.

Travis: Somebody’s selling beer somewhere.

Tom: That’s right.

Travis: For anybody that doesn’t know, I think you’re well known in this space. Obviously you speak at a ton of conferences. Got great insights. But how’d you get to where you are today? Where did Tom Erb start and how did Tallann Resources come about? Kind of what the core things of what you do and the problems you guys are solving on a kind of day to day basis.

Tom: Yeah, so my whole career has been in staffing. I came right out of college, I was in grad school, got my MBA. Didn’t know what I wanted to do, thought I wanted to go into HR. I was coming out of school at a time when there were not a whole lot of jobs. And I applied to a bunch of jobs in Columbus, Ohio. I was moving one of my friends here, he got a job as an engineer with Honda, and so I thought this was a cool town. And I applied to a bunch of places and ended up getting a job with Olsten as an interviewer. Not even as a recruiter. Just as an interviewer. And so I did that and quickly moved into recruiting and moved up through client service. And then started up one of their very first on sites. And did a variety of different things there for about six years. I got up into director level.

Tom: And then I went to Spherion and I spent 10 years at Spherion. And did everything there from … I did local retail sales to large account sales to regional director. I was the Regional Sales Director for several years with them, overseeing the Northeast region and building up that team. And then the last couple of years I was there as a Regional Vice President overseeing four states. And then I left there and started up Tallann Resources. And I’ve been doing that, it’ll be 10 years in April. And so what we do is we work specifically with the staffing and recruiting industry. We do three things. We do consulting, training, and recruiting for the staffing industry. And so, from a consulting standpoint, we work with staffing companies of all different sizes, from startups to multibillion dollar staffing companies and everything in between. And we help with sales strategy, recruitment strategy, operational analysis, ATS selection and optimization, other technology optimization, and even strategic planning.

Tom: So we do basically anything that a staffing company needs help with. We have done that across all different verticals. From a training standpoint, we do a variety of different training. We have online training that hundreds of staffing companies use. We do in person live workshops, webinars, we do all sorts of different things. We can customize our training for a company. So, and then on the recruiting side, we actually recruit internal positions for staffing companies, recruiters and sales reps and branch managers and market managers. All sorts of different types of positions that staffing companies need help with. So in a nutshell, that’s what we do.

Travis: Gotcha. So recruiting recruiters, how’s that challenging and different from other roles you’ve been in?

Tom: I think the challenge is that you’re working with people who know how to recruit. And they … you know what the irony of it is that a lot of people say, “Well, why would a recruiter need another recruiter to find positions for them?” It just really comes down to time. And it comes down to resources. Would you rather have your best recruiter out there recruiting for internal positions, or would you rather have them out there generating revenue? So I think a lot of staffing companies initially feel a little bit guilty to engage a recruiter to help them with an internal position. But the reality of it is we all have limited time and resources and have to the best places that we can.

Travis: I got that.

Tom: So it goes well, but certainly we do have the added complexity of working with people who do this also for a living, so that’s a little different.

Travis: It’s like the cobbler’s shoes are never done analogy, right?

Tom: That’s right. Yeah. They’re their kids [inaudible 00:05:31] shoes. Yeah.

Travis: Yeah. Right. Right. So I heard you talk about sales quite a bit, and how sales is very important in staffing firms and how it’s kind of overlooked a lot of the times. It gets maybe shadowed by recruiting, but it’s actually the engine that runs the entire organization. Why do you think that’s the case? Do you think staffing firms just like, “Oh, we’re recruiting. We’re pulling in candidates or we’re filling recs.” I think sometimes they forget the sales side. Why do you think that is?

Tom: Well, I think right now we’re seeing it more than ever just because they’re having challenges filling the jobs that they have. And so the feedback that we get a lot of times is why would I go out and sell? I can’t fill the positions I already have. But that’s not really the right way to look at it, because a couple of things. One is that in my experience, one time I had over 35 offices that I had to do forecasting with every year. And we would do budgets and go through pro-forma P&L’s. And we always took into account that we would lose about 10 to 15% of our business every year, through no fault of our own. And it’s just a fact of business is that you’re going to have client attrition that’s somewhere around that 10 to 15%, sometimes it’s higher, sometimes it’s lower, depending on what things are going on.

Tom: So you constantly have to be replacing what you have, not to mention the growth that you need. So when we back off of sales, we’re ultimately going to shrink. Even in an economy like we’re in right now where we have lots of jobs. The other piece to it also is that we find the most staffing companies don’t really, truly prioritize their clients and their orders correctly. And they don’t give enough thought as to what they should really be working on. And yes, I might be spinning my wheels and I have 50 open orders that I’m trying to fill. But how good are those orders? How good are those clients? And I always like to say that your recruiting problem is likely a sales problem. And that you need to be constantly kind of replacing those C accounts and those C orders, or at least giving those companies the opportunity to be A and B orders. Otherwise bring in new business.

Tom: And it’s amazing how many times that we see salespeople that are trying to bring in business that is getting neglected because the offices are so focused on those C accounts, which usually, quite frankly, are the most time consuming and frustrating and have the highest turnover and fill rate issues and all sorts of those issues. So I think sales takes a back burner because of that. The other piece to it too is if you think about it, prospects aren’t beating down our door asking us why we haven’t cold called them lately. Right? So there’s no urgency there. And you can say that a lot of people would say, “Well, no, there is urgency around sales.” Well, by the definition of the urgency, there isn’t. Because urgency would that something is causing us to do that.

Tom: Now internally we might have that, and that’s great if we do, but I think in many cases we get busy with the day to day work around recruiting because there is urgency. Because we have clients that are saying, “Where were my people?” and we have employees calling in available and we have all these things that are demanding our time that it’s very easy for sales to fall by the wayside. And then the last thing I would just say is that it’s extremely hard to find good salespeople. It’s hard. There’s just a limited number of really good salespeople out there.

Tom: And I think a lot of companies have struggled over and over again finding a good salesperson to the point where they just kind of give up and they just say, “Well, I’m just going to go without them rather than having a sales rep that I have to micromanage and isn’t making the phone calls and isn’t doing the activity and really isn’t performing and I’m just burning money.” And so in a lot of cases they just leave those positions unfilled. So there’s a bunch of reasons why sales tends to get put on the back burner.

Travis: Do you think that there’s a challenge … I mean, you said there’s a challenge is finding good sales people. But then put another layer of the staffing industry over the top of that. It’s a little bit unique. It’s not like a normal B2B sale where you kind of sell something and you walk away and it’s gone. These are established relationships you have. Do you think that’s a problem too? Where we have this limited pool anyway, and then we go down even further when you try to put the staffing lens on it. Or have you seen people in other industries come in for staffing and kill it? I’m curious on that one. [crosstalk 00:10:47].

Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve seen a lot of people come in from other industries and do very well in staffing. I do think that you’re right, it’s the staffing industry is unique because we’re dealing with people. We’re not dealing with widgets. Let’s face it, we don’t have total control over the, quote, product that we sell. And you can do absolutely everything right and still have somebody on Monday morning call off because they took another … they canceled cause they took another job. They call off because their kid’s sick. Whatever the reasons are that are just beyond our control. We can only control what we can. And that can be very frustrating to a lot of people. I think those of us that are in the industry for a while, we get used to it and we understand it, but for a lot of people, they’re just not able to deal with that. That level of-

Travis: Yeah. A little more chaotic than-

Tom: … the lack of control.

Travis: … the traditional.

Tom: Yeah. So, yeah, I do think that that plays into it. I think that in a lot of cases, companies aren’t … they’re not creating an environment and a culture for sales reps to be successful as well. They’re not giving them the tools needed. They’re not necessarily bringing them in and giving them clear expectations of what they should be doing. They’re not holding people accountable. People need to be held accountable. There needs to be metrics. There needs to be performance that they’re held to. They need to … people need to know how they’re being scored. And in a lot of cases, we see that companies don’t have any kind of accountability KPIs, performance metrics, or they do but they’re not really being held to them. And so, in a lot of cases there’s just not the structure there for a sales rep to be consistently successful. And sometimes we also make the mistake of thinking, “Well, this person already has been doing sales for eight, 10 years. They know what to do.”

Tom: Well, that’s not the case. Very few people are truly self-managed. And most people need some direction. And almost all of us do. And so a lot of times you’ll hear, “Well, they should know what to do because they’ve been doing sales for 10 years.” Well, by the way, sales has completely changed in the last three to five years, just with the way that people communicate and a lot of different … the way that people buy has changed the last several years. So I think the lot of times there are assumptions that are made that almost always prove to be wrong. And by the time they proved to be wrong, that person has unfortunately not been successful.

Travis: Right. Yeah. I think you’re kind of segueing into another topic I wanted to talk to you about, is kind of the trends that you’re seeing. You said sales is changing. Kind of universally I think in staffing too. I mean, we see it on the candidate side the time on the recruiting side. How people expect to be communicated with and the types of experience they’re looking for has changed dramatically. I’d love to get your thoughts on kind of the trends you’re seeing, the tools you’re seeing, how has that changed over your kind of experience in staffing, and where do you think we’re going with this … the web 4.0 I think I heard coined the other day, which has giving me cringe. But where do you think we’re going?

Tom: I think I missed 2.0 and 3.0.

Travis: Well, 2.0 was back when everything was like every button on a website looked like a jewel. It looked like a little puffy pillow you could put your finger on.

Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I liked those days. The biggest thing is that people just don’t answer the phone anymore. I mean, just fundamentally you think about sales, for decades, over 50 years, sales has been built on picking up the phone and making a bunch of phone calls. And we’re seeing that people just … they’re not picking up the phone. You’ve got new generations in the workforce that don’t even check their voicemail, that don’t like to be on the phone. We’ve talked to many people say, “I don’t even know what my password is to get into my corporate voicemail.” So you see that. You’ve got caller ID that obviously it’s been around for a while, but people are screening out all of their calls. They’re getting bombarded by all these different communication methods. It used to be just a phone call, and that’s what everybody got. And people would answer the phone because, by the way, they didn’t have caller ID so they didn’t know who was on the line. And so they would answer it.

Tom: But now they get three to 500 emails a day. They get texts all day. They get social media, all the different types of social media. They get instant messaging. They get Slack. They get all these different Microsoft teams. They get all these different ways they’re being communicated with now, and they have to filter it out some way. And so what’s happening is that the sales reps that are used to just making a bunch of phone calls are not having the same level of success because they’re just not getting as many live people on there. And we’re seeing that a lot of people just have yet to adapt to that, both at a management level and at the sales rep level.

Tom: So, sales managers are saying, “Well, just make more phone calls.” Well, it’s not no realistic. It’s not attainable. And so that’s one of the biggest things that we’re seeing. You’re also seeing people just want to communicate differently. A lot of people don’t even want to be on the phone. So, we’re seeing that. The other thing that we’re seeing too is this shift to educated buyers. We’re more educated now as buyers than ever before. We have unlimited resources to be able to go out and do due diligence before we ever make a decision. And so that’s a big change as well. People don’t just make major purchases, just they don’t go into a Best Buy and buy a TV. They go and they go online and read online reviews. They go to that company website, they go and look at the comparisons. They go and read the reviews that are on Amazon and other sites. They go out and to social media and say, “Hey, I’m thinking about buying a new TV. Does anybody have recommendations?” So they’re crowdsourcing.

Tom: So we’re now dealing with buyers that are research buyers. They’re not … 15, 20 years ago a sales rep from a staffing company calls in, the person answers the phone, and they’ve had a bad day and they had three people not show up that morning and they go, “Yep, I’ll give you a chance.” Well, that doesn’t happen now because they go through this research process. And they have to comfortable with you. And so we have to, as part of the sales process, actually help them with that, and provide them with the data. Hey, here’s references. Here’s case studies. Here’s white papers we’ve written, or people have written. And there’s our blogs, there’s other resources that we have. There’s all this kind of content that we have. podcasts like we’re doing right now. All of that goes into this new research buyer. And that’s … yeah. So those are the two fundamental ways that sales has really, really changed.

Travis: Gotcha. Yeah. I mean I think, kind of being in this space since 2006 … I’ve always been on the staffing software side of the house. But seeing how everything is adapting and adjusting … in 2006, 2007 there was a time where staffing, I would say, was eight to 10 years behind everything else. And now that gap is starting to the lesson, which is good. I think it creates a better product for multiple companies. But to your point, the challenge is now how do you differentiate when your competitor’s kind of offering the same types of services or the same level of high touch. That’s, I think, the challenge that people are having now. And one way that we’ve kind of seen in mass market is just kind of content marketing. Basically getting your story out in different mediums.

Tom: Yeah, yeah.

Travis: Thoughts on that one. But the one thing I always come back to is like, I think there’s some self reflection that needs to happen. So take a Tallann Resources for example, and a business leader is considering pulling in a consultant. What kind of questions are they asking of themselves? How do they self identify that they’ve got a gaping wound in their sales department, or even in their recruiting department? What should they be looking for? What kind of KPIs or behaviors should they kind of keep their eyes out … eyes peeled for?

Tom: Yeah. I think one of the things is that they’ve got to take a look and see … like on the sales side … well, on either side the first thing you have to look at is their internal talent. And they have to say, “Okay, do we have the right people in place for today?” And if it’s on the sales side, do we have the right people that can have more consultative discussions, that can really be able to communicate and resonate with these research based buyers. Are we recruiting the right people? Are we recruiting from the right places? Whether it’s sales or the recruiting, I think when we take a look at performance, it really falls into six different areas that you have to be good at in all six areas in order to be the most successful.

Tom: And those six areas are recruitment, starts with recruitment. Where are we recruiting people from? And this is sales or recruiters, is there anybody in the organization? Where are we pulling people from? Are we focused purely on active job seekers and unemployed job seekers, which only make up about 13% of the workforce? Or are we reaching out to everybody, to the entire talent pool, or at least most of it? And if not, why not? And how can we do that? Because if we’re limiting ourselves to a 13%, that’s a small percentage of the pool, but it’s also a … in many cases there are a lot of people that are in those active job searches or unemployed for reasons that aren’t great. And so we have to take that into account. So recruitment’s the first piece of it.

Tom: The second part is selection. It’s how are we even determining whether or not this person is right? And some companies do a really great job at this, and other companies struggle with it over and over again. And most companies I see struggle with it. Do we have a formal selection process? Do we use behavioral interviewing? Do we use behavioral assessments as another data point? Do we even know what we’re really looking for? It’s amazing how many times I work with the company, and they come in and they’ll say, “We’re really struggling with our sales people.” And I go, “Well, okay, let’s take a look at your job description.” “Well, I don’t have one.” “Okay, well then what are you looking for? What’s the criteria?” And then you say, “Well, what do you want them to accomplish?” And those two things don’t align, what the criteria is that they’re selecting and what they want this person to actually do don’t actually match up. And so the selection is the second part.

Tom: Onboarding’s the third part, is how are we bringing this person into our organization, and in a way that they’re going to be successful, and in a way that they felt that they’ve made a good choice. What is their first day like? How are we getting them up to speed quickly? We find a lot of times that even though you’re trying to get people up to speed quick and you want them to be productive, it’s not uncommon for a staffing company to bring a sales rep in and that person doesn’t really start making phone calls or any kind of sales activity for three or four weeks. And it’s because there’s no real process for doing that. So how can you get it so that they can come in, they can learn the business, they can learn what is expected of them, but also get them up and productive as quick as possible.

Tom: The next, the fourth piece, is compensation. Are we compensating them the right way, and are we compensating them, particularly on a variable comp side, to where they can … that it is rewarding them for the type of behavior and activities and production that we want, but it’s also driving that behavior too. So it’s steering them towards it. If we want somebody that’s going to be focusing on bringing in high volume revenue accounts, then we don’t want to compensate them based on high percentage gross profit or vice versa. We have to make sure the compensation aligns well. And then the fifth piece is what we talked about earlier, which is just performance management. It’s goal setting, it’s key performance indicators, it’s quota, it’s are we creating very, very specific expectations and then are we managing to those?

Tom: And then the last piece, which I think is really overlooked, is training and coaching. Is ongoing. How do we not just train them in the first couple of weeks that they’re with us, or the first week, but ongoing how do I take the people that I already have and keep getting them better? How do I get somebody to improve so that they are 10, 15, 20% more productive, rather than I just need to bring in another person to make up for the fact that my people aren’t as productive. So that’s what owners and managers of staffing companies should be looking at, is do I have all six of those areas covered? And if not, how do I get better in all of those areas?

Tom: Because any one of those areas can trip you up. And particularly the front side, the recruitment and selection. If I don’t get the right people in the door, it really doesn’t matter what I do. I can get some production out of certain people, but if I don’t have the right people, it just makes it a lot tougher. So those are the areas that I think they look at, that they should be looking at.

Travis: Yeah. I mean, it really is … it’s a whole people, process, technology. I mean, there’s a reason it always starts with people, right? So they’re most important thing. Companies aren’t robots yet. I mean, they’re still comprised of people doing things. And it’s a huge [crosstalk 00:26:19].

Tom: Yeah. I mean, people, process, technology has been around forever. I forget who originally came up with it, one of the consulting firms, but it’s just as true today as it was when they coined 20 years ago or however long ago.

Travis: Oh, no question. I mean, again, you’ve worked with hundreds if not thousands of staffing firms. You’ve been around the block for a really long time. What’s the thing that if you see one more time, it’s going to drive you absolutely nuts? When you walk into a company you’re like, “Why are you doing it this way?” What’s going to make you just drop your stuff and just walk out?

Tom: Oh, geez. Lots of paper, lots of whiteboards. I think that many times we’ll work with companies that talk about how the ATS isn’t being utilized as it should be, but then they have all the jobs up on the whiteboard and they’re kind of enabling that behavior to take people outside of job boards, or outside of the ATS. I think that’s one of the things, is just inefficiencies around utilizing systems and having processes in place. It’s not going to make me drop my stuff and walk out, because that’s what people need help with.

Travis: That’s why you’re there. Right.

Tom: Right. But it is something that certainly we see regularly. It’s very, very common. So yeah, I would say that that’s probably it.

Travis: Yeah. I’ve liked the … I think Bullhorn started adopt their kind of Bullhorn One kind of platform with pretty much a single source of truth. You hear it all the time. If it didn’t happen in Bullhorn, then it didn’t happen. Right? So I think what you’re saying … I don’t know how many people I’ve talked to. It’s like, “Oh, well, we have an ATS. We have Bullhorn or Talent Rover or Salesforce or whatever else.” And they’re still working off of spreadsheets. And that’s just … it’s ridiculous. I don’t know that the answer to that, other than from the top down it’s not getting beaten to their heads.

Tom: Yeah. There has to be a real commitment to it, to change and that you’re going to do things in the system, that you’re going to have certain processes that you’re not going to stray from it. You can’t have 80% of your employees doing one thing and then another 20% gets to do another because they’re better at things than others. Well, they’re an exception. I don’t want them mess with what they’re doing. You can’t really do that. You have to make a full commitment to it, and it’s tough for a lot of people to do.

Travis: Yeah. Before we head off and wrap up. If you were to guess … I mean, I hate the five year … people ask the five year question, but where are we at in five years as an industry? What trends today are going to be either processes or technology? What’s going to be, in five years, kind of driving the ship and what everybody’s talking about? If you were to take a swag at it.

Tom: Yeah. We’re certainly heading more and more towards self-service, the mobile workforce management. Kind of the Uberization of staffing. We’re seeing that rapidly evolve, and you’re seeing companies that are adopting that pretty quick. I think it’s never going to … I’m confident that it’s never going to replace staffing companies and the need for recruiters and for all the other positions. I would equate our industry … a lot of people have talked about comparing it to travel agents and how technology really killed that industry for the most part. There’s still travel agents around, but they’re pretty specialized and there’s not nearly as many of them. I don’t see that comparison. My comparison has always been more to the realtor profession, and the fact that there’s more realtors now than ever before. Even though you can go up to all sorts of different sites and see the houses an apartments out there.

Tom: I look at technology just continuing to integrate into our process, and I see that self-service is what everybody wants. People don’t want to pick up the phone and talk to somebody about something. They want to be able to do it on their phone. They want to be able to do everything on their phone except actually talk to somebody.

Travis: Exactly.

Tom: And so I think we’re going to continue to see that happen. I think it’s a really … right now it’s really easy for companies that have immediate needs, or next day needs, where they don’t need to go through an interview process. So things like hospitality and day labor and no per diem health care and those types of things where it’s much easier for them to be able to just put somebody out on a shift or whatever, utilizing this mobile workforce technology. That’s a very natural way to do it. I think what’s going to happen over the next few years is how can that be utilized for some of the more complex things? For maybe some IT positions and accounting and finance and just where there needs to be more vetting. And so that still has to be kind of figured out. I’m not saying this because I’m talking to you, but candidate engagement. We’ve talked about this before, you and I have over Hazy IPAs.

Travis: The IPAs in the Northeast.

Tom: Yeah, so we’ve talked about this. I truly believe that candidate engagement is the route that we have to go over the next several years. We are not going to, all of a sudden, add tens of millions of people to the workforce. The Baby Boomers continue to be retiring at 10,000 a day I think is the number. You’ve got generations after the Baby Boomers, none of them are going to make up for it. In fact, people are having children in the US later and later in life, and less of them. And so we’re going to continue to see shortages for decades. And so five years from now we’re still going to be in a shortage even if we go through downturn in the economy, which at some point we will. So it’s really going to be about how do we utilize the databases that we have, how do we optimize what we’ve already done?

Tom: And I really see that that’s going to continue to be extremely important. It’s going to be more important than ever. I also think that the job boards will continue to evolve as they’re doing right now. I don’t know what they’ll look like in five years. There will still be a place for job boards, certainly, but it’s going to continue to be different because there’s going to continue to be that shortage of people. And that just means that the ROI on job boards is going to continue to be a struggle for companies and for the job boards. So that’s kind of where I see things going to be in five years. We’re going to be much more technologically focus, much more focused on optimizing, maximizing our databases, and less focused hopefully on just candidate intake all the time. Because we just won’t have the candidates to intake in the numbers that we need them to be.

Travis: Yeah, I kind of see that vision. And you hit it on the head, like Uberization. I mean, Uber for jobs now is the thing. So if you have those needs for on-demand workforce, that’s going to be the way it happens, probably in five years. I think you’re also right that there’s still the human element. So you can’t hire a server … if they show up, even if you went through Uber and they show up and they’re just not a culture fit or they’re just not going to be the what you need at that time, you can still decline that because there’s still that human to human interface that’s still going to happen. In our foreseeable future anyway.

Tom: Yeah. I mean, you’re seeing it even with some of the cloud recruiting sites like Upwork, where they had to add people because there is a human component that’s never going to go away. It needs to be there.

Travis: For sure.

Tom: It’s just more complex than now, say, booking a flight or something like that.

Travis: Yeah, completely agree. Cool. Tom, we’ve been chitchatting for about 40 minutes. It’s flown by. It’s awesome. I want to let everybody know, how can they get in touch with you, either Tallann resources on LinkedIn, on Twitter. Where do you hang out online?

Tom: Yeah, I mean, I’m on LinkedIn all the time. You can always reach out to me there. My email address is tomerb, T-O-M-E-R-B, @tallannresources.com. You can go to our website and go and fill out a contact form. You can reach out to me through Twitter. Yeah. I mean, there’s all sorts of different ways to get ahold of me.

Travis: Cool. And I’ll post that in the article. And everybody listening, we’ll have this all written up and on the Herefish blog and shared all over the place here shortly. So, Tom, thanks again. I appreciate you chatting with me today. Until the next time we can share a frosty brew, whatever conference that we’re jetting around too.

Tom: That’s right. Yeah. Well, thanks, Travis. Appreciate you having me on here. It’s good talking with you.